Of course it should be possible to change the Gear on the Grid. Should be out of question that a LFS car should be able to do that. Maybe it will come with the false start Updates.

+1 Definitely more cars would be nice. Like in NASCAR Racing 2003 with 43 cars at Watkins Glen or the Nurburgring. It sometimes get a Mess in Public Races but its not that big of deal and good to have for League Events

Quote from nihil :

Its not bad attitude. Its a difference of opinion. LFS is a representation of real life and as such needs to be mediated in some way. Will ALWAYS be mediated in some way. Will never be 'real'...

Everybody is entitled to his Opinion, but its bad attitude when people start to assume we get ashamed if we got beaten by a keyboard driver, or we are "eliteists". :flamed:
Most of the People racing on Hardcore Mode Setted up Server would still be Racing alot on any other Server - just like now people jump from Server to Server and Combo to Combo.

Quote from nihil :

You want reality. Buy a car.

No thanks I got a 116hp reardrive manual transmission car and I love it I have also been to Race driving schools driving Formula 2000 cars but it was too expensive to keep on going. Sim Racing is more than a PC Game, its a Hobby. I dont use the PC for much except enjoying the digital recreation of Motorsport.

Quote from nihil :

The difference of opinion comes from the notion that you are inadvertently promoting, that true, pro, racing only occurs when everyone competes on equal terms with equal controllers. This is an idealist fantasy. One that you are quite welcome to indulge and I certainly willl not stand in anyone's way in creating servers to accomodate you.

An idealist fantasy? lol. There can never be equal terms for controllers and surroundings. We all know that.
But some important things of Simulating a Car could be set to equal if the Host wants to do that. "True" Racing only occurs on a true track. There should be the possibility in a Online Driving Simulation that you organise a Race without driving Aids wouldnt you say?

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Thu 4 Jan 2007, 17:29.

Quote :

Racing is about braking in the right place, taking a good line, and accelerating in the right place

Right. But what needs to be understood is that there is a HUGE DIFFERENT GAME between driving with

2 Pedals + F1 Paddle Shifting + Driving Aids + Chase View

or

3 Pedals + H-Shifting + no driving Aids + Cockpit View

How hard is it to see that this makes a huge difference when it comes to braking - accelerating - and controlling the car threw the corner? How hard is it to understand that People want to Race other guys who also need to change gears the normal way, and dont use driving Aids, whats so bad about that?

If a Server requires Clutching or H-Shifting or both you are not forced to join the Server if you dont want to Race that way or do not have the Hardware for it. There are plenty of other Servers and the Majority still uses driving Aids so there will always be enough drivers for you to Race with.

Why all this bad Attitude when it comes to improving the Sim for those who want to get out the full Potential of it while Racing other People with the same settings.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Thu 4 Jan 2007, 16:34.

The Rating System in NASCAR Racing 2003 is very nice and it would be great to have some kind of Ratings in LFS too. What do you think especially Becky Rose about this Ratings System in NR2003:



http://www.racelinecentral.com ... allery/SierraRules/p1.gif
http://www.racelinecentral.com ... allery/SierraRules/p2.gif
http://www.racelinecentral.com ... allery/SierraRules/p3.gif

You get very fast Races on 6-10 Races, and 4-10 are also very good, 0-10 Servers are a Mess mostly but then anybody had to work his Ratings up from there, so they are mostly Newbies. The whole System is great and well balanced, nearly all Servers run Rating System.

and by the way it is not 300 Dollars, but 20 Dollars for any old Wheel you get at ebay that has intact pedals, + 60 Dollar for a good H-Shifter like the Act Labs one or other good Shifter like that one from SimGear Lightning.

So it is actually about 80 Dollars that you would need - if you dont got any old Wheel somewhere, because if you would have, you would only need the H- Shifter, and for 60 Dollars you get a better H-Shifter than you would get with the G25.

For 100 Dollar you would get the Act Labs 2006 Shifter, and after 150 Dollar it gets even better quality with the SimGear. For 300 Dollars it gets High End with the FREX stuff and others for a H-Shifter alone. But it is not 300 Dollar for 3 PEdals and a H-Shifter.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Wed 3 Jan 2007, 22:05.

Why do people not use there Real Name when Racing outside there League? Why these Ego-Shooter style Nick Names? In Grand Prix Legends very few people had and have Nick Names

Quote from nihil :

Sorry but this is just nonsense. A simulation that provides as much information as is necessary to drive it is obviously better than one than limits you, but to say that the quality of simulation is dependent on the view you use is crass. It ignores centuries of theory on perception and representation.

And why is it nonsense exactly? Your opinion seems to be that the view above the cockpit view is a more accurate presentation of driving a car. I dont think that way and I think the Majority do consider Cockpit view a better Simulation of driving then the view on the Roof or Wheels only...

Dont forget all this talk is not about changing LFS fundamentaly - were talking about an Option to Race people that use the same View all of the time.

By the way disabled people could also join a Server running Simulation Mode Settings - all they need is a Wheel that has Analog Paddles like the Thrustmaster Modena. Requireng on a Server to use clutch and H-Shifter would be cheatable, but lets not overestimate how many drivers would cheat.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Wed 3 Jan 2007, 15:46.

Quote from nihil :

I really don't understand this attitude, because the view you use has nothing to do with the quality of simulation - its simply a method you use to read the feedback from your input.

Well it has, if a Simulation lets me view only that I'm sitting on top of the car, its a far worse Simulation than one that gives me the drivers view as best as possible.
If I can organise a Race where everybody drives in the same Simulation View it would be a Great thing to have in a a Simulation.

Quote from nihil :

If its about creating a level playing field, then you're on a hiding to nothing anyway since everyone is using a different controller. Are you going to create servers that only allow one brand of wheel at a required ff setting?

Yes one uses a G25, the other uses VPP Pedals, or FREX Wheels, and somebody else might just take any other cheap Pedal and connect it as a clutch. Having a Server that only allow one brand of wheel is not practicabel.

But what do these G25, FREX, VPP or ECCI Drivers have in common? They use the same basic driving technique, like clutching with the left foot, or switching gears with one hand... these are fundamental differences to 2 pedals-F1 Paddle Shifter driving techniques, who brake with one foot on the brake and one on the Throttle to prevent wheel lock and stabilise the car threw the corner while they dont have to properly clutch a Gear and never have to take a Hand off the Wheel. So its a whole different Game, and thats why it would be nice TO BE ABLE to organise Races in full Simulation Mode.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Wed 3 Jan 2007, 14:18.

Quote from nihil :

Just out of interest - in which sims is this a normal restriction for online play?

First off, it is not normal, but an Option to have for the Host if he wants to run the Server like this... netkarPro has Cockpit view only, NASCAR Racing 4 up to NASCAR Racing 2003 have Forced Cockpit view (as an Online Option), I dont got GTR2 or rFactor, but they might have it too. Its a must have for a good Online Simulation.

Seems like some people feel strongly against allowing us a full Simulation - Hardcore Mode.

Even forced cockpit view, something totally normal for other Sims seems to be to much.

Others are afraid that Cue Balls Server running Simulation Mode Settings will split the LFS Community into half ? We better dont get another Track cause that splits up more than what were asking for.

With so much sentiments against a Simulation Hardcore Mode, maybe this Mode should be alot more configurable, perhaps Hardcore Mode could also allow Chase View drivers and the like, if it has to be to get this thing happen... but then make it configurable that 3 Pedals/no driving Aids user could still get Online Races in a full blown Simulation Mode.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Wed 3 Jan 2007, 13:33.

Ups sorry didnt find that before, thanks

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Wed 3 Jan 2007, 03:34.

Thankfully most people are honest people, and for one guy with wheel4hummers Attitude you get 100 drivers not cheating in that Mode with there Wheel buttons or running external programs... Whats speaks against this Option for the Host? Someone could be cheating his way on the Server? Huge Majority of drivers do never cheat.

btw alot of People do not have a G25 and use a third Pedal very cheap as you can take any other old PC Steering Wheel Pedal, and connect it. Thats just what I did. Didnt cost me a thing as I had a second Wheel from years ago and reused its Pedals

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Wed 3 Jan 2007, 03:26.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Then don't?

But it gives a huge disadvantage. Simulations like from Papy, adds a little time when you use driving Aids, so that driving Aids drivers are not faster. Edited last sentence

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Tue 2 Jan 2007, 23:29. Reason : I stand corrected ;)

Seems like the 2 pedals Lobby does not want 3 Pedal users to have the Option, to run Races where everybody uses the same techniques of driving, important things for a Racing Simulation - such as shifting the Gears while using a clutch pedal, or shifting Gears with a H-Type Shifter. You dont have to run any of these Options, but you should be able to if you want to. If it is not "approved" to allow these Settings to be made by the Host, we can also start calling LFS a Online Racing Game, if its not beeing allowed to run full Simulation type Options.

Surely there will always be a way around by using buttons instead of a H-type Gated Shifter, or buttons as a clutch Axis, but it is uncomfortabel to drive with that technique then, and some good Programming could prohibit atleast some cheating probably. Even if its not 100 % Cheat Prove but then what is? It should not be missed because of that if this feature is called a "Hardcore Mode".

I totally agree with Cue Ball.

The list seems rather Semi-Hardcore given the Approach towards the Clutch help.

The clutch is an essential part of Simulating a car, it should be included in a "Hardcore" Mode.

IMHO in a Hardcore Mode, it shouldnt even be possible to assign the clutch to a button, its supposed to be an Axis in most cases. Furthermore, a Hardcore Mode should ATLEAST HAVE THE OPTION to only allow H-gated shifting. There are alot of people on 3 pedals who do not have a G25. And would like to Race other people who also use 3 Pedals and a H-Type shifter.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Tue 2 Jan 2007, 19:10.

I agree with all things mentioned in the opening thread, especially the option to only allow certain Setup changes is good as some cars should not be able to be modified that much (Road Cars) + agree with hese things said by Becky Rose:

max connection latency +1
reset=retire +1
neutral gear at start +1

I would like to suggest further:

• More time when the Server makes a Restart.

As it is now, you finish a Race, some guys continue Racing and others go to the Pit, change something and try it out... Others simply watch TV when waiting for a Restart, some people might take a drink - but everybody only has bloody 3 seconds to get to the Start. That means you have to be lucky to have time to save your Setups once the 3 seconds counter starts, configure something in the Options, or just looked away from the Monitor for a few Seconds can be very stressful or cause a Pile Up at the Start.

For example, the time Grand Prix Legends gives the drivers to get ready and on the Starting Grid is 24 Seconds. 24 Seconds gives you enough time to get ready to Race. It can be stressful though if your browsing the Options Screens and the 24 seconds counter begins, but most of the time 24 seconds is quite manageable.

Another example for this is NASCAR Racing 2003, where you have 60 seconds time to finish what your just doing and get ready to click on the Drive button.

I would like to see the 3 seconds raised to something like 30 seconds or a minute, with a Sound file that starts when the Counter begins.
In NR2003 a Sound comes up when the 60 seconds starts ticking down. It plays Sounds of Track Speaker and the crowd getting loud. That way you can sit away from the PC and do something else until the Race starts, because you hear it.

• Option for Cockpit view only
  
• Option to disallow certain or all driving Aids
  
• Option to only allow 3 Pedals drivers and H-Type Gated Shifter drivers on the Server if the car is supposed to be driven that way

I know the last point scares some people but the thought is to have an Option for this if the league or Server would like to host that type of Simulation Racing. Clutch should be assigned as an Axis. Cockpit View only and disallowing driving Aids is something alot of Sims have since a long time, and would be nice to have in LFS too

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Tue 2 Jan 2007, 17:58.

I dont think this has been mentioned before but has there been any Word from Scawen regarding driving Aids such as Automatic Clutch and how it will be handled once the Clutch Physics get better? For example if someone uses Sequential Shifting in a Car that is supposed to be shifted with an H-Shifter, will his shifting Method be as fast or faster than the right Shifting method of that car?

Using any Driving Aids such as Automatic Clutch or using Sequential Shifting in a H-Shiter type car should be a little bit slower than normal shifting technique of the car.

In NR2003 for example, using Automatic Shifting will cost you a couple of tenths of a second with every shift. That is so that driving Aids users do not have an Advantage over Simulation Mode drivers.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Tue 2 Jan 2007, 10:54.

I do also run two controllers so that I do have a clutch Pedal. I also have the Act Labs Shifter connected in the Game Controller Options.

Odd thing is, whenever I start LFS out of the Logitech Wingman Game Profiler I just dont have an Axis assigned to the brake Pedal at all.

When I start LFS without the Logitech Wingman Game Profiler I do have all the Pedals assigned to Axis but fast movements puts off the center off the wheel.

I do have the Logitech Black Racing. What could be the reason that I dont have a Axis assigned to the brake Pedal of the Logi Wheel when I start from the Profiler?

Default setting was what I ment as "standard"

After Meddling and tryieng around different things with the view, the Audio and Graphics settings it would be nice to have a button on the Option screen that your currently in, that puts the settings back to "standard".

Montoya lost his car twice with warm tyres tryieng to make that "shakedown" before the Restart. It is not that easy to throw a F1 car around like some LFS drivers seem to think.

Had a lot of good Races yesterday on Redline in the F08. Thanks alot

Quote from dev :

Hm... NO!

Schtaye?

+1 for all that Couldnt have said it better:

Quote from Hyperactive :

I just hope that Scawen is prepared to go for the hard way. If you spin in the BF1 (for example) and the engine goes off. Well, tough luck. No starter = spectate.

It is quite brutal effect in the end when you have been driving years without having to take care of the engine. Suddenly you need to watch for overrevving and engine temps. It is just quite a big difference compared to the current situation when there is basically no way of damaging the engine if you trying to drive as fast as possible. As fast as possible is flatshifting, overrevving... The same thing with aerodynamic damage (wings falling off etc..). People who are used to have small nudges during the races in FOX (for example) will have hard time understanding that the wings are very fragile on those cars. I like very much the idea of undertray damage what ajp suggested in one other thread; cutting corners would damage the understrays. Even though it is the nature of tracks to cut so deeply it is still a unrealistic when you compare similar corners from real life.

What I'm trying to say is that engine stalling itself includes a lot more features and dimensions than just accidentally stalling the engine. I really hope that we won't see any arcade options, like "auto-clutch on spin". And the current driving aids are inspected and reviewed on the basis of speed gain and easiness of driving. Using auto-clutch does not only make you faster, it makes it easier. Same thing if the throttle cut on upshift is left untouched. With engine damage implemented that option can severely aid your driving because you can't overrev the engine on upshift.

I really hope that these driving aids come with proper time penalty, to reward people to use H-pattern shifters and clutch pedals or pay a price for not using them. This has, of course, quite close relatioship with the engines and drivetrains and transmission in individual cars in LFS, which needs to be different. Does the FZ50 have paddles or H-pattern shifter? The GTRs? The LXs?

Quote from r4ptor :

Hyperactive:

I've lately been thinking exactly the same regarding.. well, everything: shifter, clutch and about corner cutting too (undertray).

I purchased Act Labs RS Shifter, but stopped using it 2 months ago because sequential is faster (a shame, I really liked driving with it).

I'm not about to say that sequential should be slower as default, because that would be unrealistic - instead I suggest each car has it's own prefered gearbox, and this alone should be the fastest one - for that particular car.

Forinstance - FXO with sequential = slower gear changes than using shifter. Or the reverse: FOX with sequential changes faster than shifter.

Still, nothing is forced upon people, but what you chose isn't necesarely best for that car.

IMO thats the only way to do it.

Exactly same goes for the clutch.

I'm not talking about huge time penaties here - that would be annoying, pointless and leave less drivers to run at a competitive pace - but the ones with the proper setup, some (serious) practice or even skills, should show the true difference.

A proper damage system would be really great addition to LFS - I'm hoping this will be the next big thing being worked on.

I've participated in some leagues - currently in MoE which is the most thrilling and demanding (IMO) of them all, and I've gone from overheating tires within 10 laps - premature punctures to full stints without too much to worry about.

It would be more difficult to race with a complete damage system, but on the other hand also more thrilling and rewarding when done right - also - you might do moves that causes minor damage that basically doesn't affect the car, but repeating this over and over again should be penalized with such system.

Some tracks/combos just seem so unrealistic the way they are driven with the cutting. It actually took quiet some time for me to understand this - and had to re-program my brain not to think too realistically :P

NASCAR Racing 2003 by Papyrus does handle this 'issue' by letting the Automatic Gear change be a little bit slower than the normal Gear change. Same should go in LFS if you take a car using a Automatic Clutch Pedal - it should work a little slower than normal Pedal Clutching, same for F1 Paddle Shifting in H-Gate Shifting type cars.